Curse

Jeydra · Jun 06, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

OK first things first: I don't mean to make fun physicalway, but after trying it the first time that's my reaction - laughter. I just found it funny for some reason. This thread is a semi-continuation of the previous one in the Necromancer subforums; I realize it was locked for a reason but then this is an interesting addon ...

Carinae Dragonblood's physicalway vs. semi-standard Discordway
Battleground: Selve NM

E/W Sword with: 12 Sword, 12 Water, 3 Energy Storage
Dragon Slash
For Great Justice!
Conjure Frost
Sun and Moon Slash
By Ural's Hammer!
Frenzy (<-- LOL! Using this skill without a cancel made me laugh, was a good test of micro'ing Prot Spirit on myself)
Asuran Scan
Save Yourselves!

Plus the heroes he listed: MM, Orders with Strength of Honor, Ether Prot;
Plus the henchmen he listed: Lina, Zho, Talon and Devona.
I'd use Drunken Master except I don't get drunk (both in-game and in real life).

I'll say at once that I'm impressed by the amount of damage the combined build outputs. Even with my E/W version of a Sword build, I can hit over 200, which is certainly great. The run to Slaver's was way faster than what could've been done with Discordway or any of my standard casterballs for that matter, although that is to be expected since I typically mass hexes and the Skelk have Withdraw Hexes. I was laughing all the way to the dungeon at how much damage I could autoattack for.

Then I wound up laughing even harder in the dungeon! Once again the mob that took out the first physical build I tried wiped the build. Twice. Even with Save Yourselves. The heroes and henchmen simply did not have enough heals in the constricted area (I really wonder why on earth anyone would bring Lina instead of Mhenlo with an Ether Prot in the teambuild already!?). In the meantime I go out there and die to Sandstorm (can't attack lol) and block block block (lol Dragon Slash 10 adrenaline cost) and Frenzy (lol even with Prot Spirit DoT AoE hits heavy). I could of course stop using Frenzy, which I did, but that didn't stop the mob from rolling over the build. It was pretty funny as well looking at how all party bars are at 60% and knowing precisely why: you can't cope with AoE damage well as an ER Elementalist, and Zhed is resolute about not Infusing. I'm not saying the dungeon cannot be done with physicalway, but it would at least take as much control and finesse as Discordway would have to use when trying it in HM.

Conclusion: physicalway is largely dependent on the player for the damage. It is also fantastic damage when you are left to work uninhibited. It's heavy enough damage that I think it can reasonably compare with Discordway when Discordway has 20 minions out (not so sure about 40). But uninhibited is a lot to ask for. You need no blocks, no snares, no blind, no antimelee hexes, no DoT AoE or PBAoE, no terrain difficulties, etc etc etc. Discordway on the other hand is a lot more stable. Unaltered, or almost unaltered, it can take out so many areas in the game. It is not entirely reliant on the player for damage (at least when minions are out), anticaster is so much rarer than antimelee, its defense can take a lot more pounding, it hits at full caster range, it is easier to pull hit-and-runs and wear down tough mobs, it has less downtime between mobs. It has only one serious counter - a lack of bodies - and when that happens you can always run semi-standard Discordway like I did.

I'll give up all my laughter and mirth playing E/W Sword and stick with Discordway

Still I can see an argument for using physicalways when you're a melee character yourself (not so sure about Paragons and Rangers). If nothing else, it's great to see -200's on your screen, even if it means the rest of your heroes and henchmen are barely dealing damage.

Ensign · Jun 07, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Straw Man

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Carinae · Jun 07, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

A few points:

1) Conjure Frost nullifies Orders, you gimped yourself.

2) The ER Prot really shines with a Prot hench, except EotN Lina. She doesn't have Aegis, ALL Prot hench have it except EotN Lina. This give you Aegis chaining and proper PS/SB stacking.

3) It has 4x hex removal AND 4x condition removal. It will easily pop off anti-melee hexes/conditions very fast, but can get bogged down where hexes get stacked quickly. Shrug, what to do.

4) I've never tested it in Slavers with a full H/H, but.... I run those three heroes in Slavers (with other people) often.

5) Take it on a VQ. It rips through Morostav (loaded with Blurred Vision and Cripple) and most other zones.

6) It really does need a lead physical. Preferably Sin or War.

7) So, we have confirmation that I wasn't lying about hitting for 100+ hp per hit? It'll do 150-250 per hit consistently with a Sin or War.

Chthon · Jun 07, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

1. No, please no. Stop the insanity. No more discordway threads. It's "good enough," but not great. End of discussion. Let's not do this again.

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You need no blocks, no snares, no blind, no antimelee hexes, no DoT AoE or PBAoE, no terrain difficulties, etc etc etc.

Every build has certain counters, and every build encounters certain areas where the mobs carry enough of those counters to cause a problem. (Case in point: QQ thread that discordway doesn't work in Ooze Pit HM.) You either modify the build to include counters to the counters, or you abandon the build and try something else.

Jeydra · Jun 07, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Straw Man

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Straw Man

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

I wasn't even attacking physicalway and you assume I was, nice straw man.

Ensign · Jun 07, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I wasn't even attacking physicalway and you assume I was, nice straw man.

So you made a thread called lol physicalway lol where you described taking a bad build into a dungeon for which it was completely ill-suited and failing because...

You are not this stupid. If you're going to make another thread to beat a dead horse, at least bring some new information to the table. Threads designed to do little more than stir the pot again will die an inglorious death.

[DE] · Jun 07, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

If you're going to test out a build for comparison at least use the correct profession for your player class.

It's impossible to try and point out the flaws in a 'physicalway' build when you're running a E/W sword warrior that doesn't have a prayer of achieving the same success a dervish, sin, or warrior could have. (Not to mention bringing conjure and nullifying some of your buffs).